If one who is experienced in the Lord is present at a revival meeting, he can tell whether the speaker is using soulical or spiritual power. Once a friend of mine told me how powerful a certain preacher was. As I had never before met this preacher, I said I dare not judge. But I did write a few words on a notebook and gave it to my friend. I wrote: "Full of power but what power?" This friend was not as advanced in the Lord as was his wife. He did not understand what I had written. So he turned to ask his wife. After reading the note, she laughingly admitted, "This is indeed a real problem. What power is that preacher filled with?" Once a brother among us observed that whether someone had power or not could not be judged by how hard he was able to pound the pulpit. We need to discern in a meeting if a person's power is psychical or spiritual.
We may judge this power from two directions: from the preacher himself and from the audience. If a preacher relies on his past experience-wherein people repented through a message he gave-by deciding to deliver a message a second time with the expectation of getting the same result as at the first, he is undoubtedly working with his psychic power. Or if he tries to stir up people by relating many stories of repentance, he again will be using his psychic power.
On the other hand, if the attitude of a preacher is like that of Evan Roberts, God's vessel in the Welsh Revival of 1904-5, then his soul power will be denied. For that servant of the Lord asked God to bend him, to bind his soul power, to bridle his self, and to block all which came out of him. He who ministers ought to know the difference between these two forces. He should be able to discern what is done by his soul power and what is done by the power of God.
The work of the Holy Spirit is threefold: (1) to regenerate us, (2) to indwell us that we may produce the fruit of the Spirit, and (3) to come upon us that we may have the power to witness. Now whenever the Bible touches on the power of the Holy Spirit, it invariably points to work or witnessing. This refers to the Holy Spirit coming upon us, not to His working within us. It is clear that the power of the Holy Spirit is for work; the indwelling is for fruit. The power of the Holy Spirit is always spoken of in the original text of the Bible as descending or coming upon, while the fruit-bearing aspect of the Holy Spirit is spoken of as abiding in.
Why is the enabling power of the Holy Spirit spoken of as being upon? Because the enabling which the Holy Spirit gives you is outside of you. You cannot be sure of it. Therefore if in a meeting people ask you whether you are confident of today's meeting confident that people will be saved-you have to confess that you have no assurance whatsoever. For this power is exterior to you. The power of the Holy Spirit is beyond your control. But if this is soul force, you are assured of it. You know your message can cause people to weep and to make them repent. What is called dynamic power is merely the power of the soul.
Once I felt powerless. Although other people told me I was satisfactory, I felt rather feeble. So I went to see an elderly experienced sister, Margaret E. Barber. I said to her, "Your power is great, why do I not have power?" We knew each other well, and she frequently helped me in spiritual matters. She looked at me seriously and asked, "What power do you want what you may feel or what you cannot feel?" As soon as I heard, I understood. I therefore answered, "I want what I cannot feel." So she said, "You must remember that there is no need for people to feel the power which comes from the Holy Spirit. Man's duty is to obey God. For the power of the Holy Spirit is not given for man to feel." (Note that sensing in the spirit is another matter.) My duty is to ask God to bind my soul force, that is, my own power. I am to obey God absolutely, the rest I leave to Him to do.
If we work with soul force, we can feel it just as do the hypnotists, who know what results they will get by doing certain things. They know from the first step to the last step. The peril of the pulpit lies in the fact that many preachers do not know they are using their own psychic force. They think they have power; but they are only employing psychological power to win people.
Some have suggested that preachers have become experts on the use of psychology in manipulating people. But I strongly repudiate such manipulation; for even though we know how to attract people with psychic means, we should purposely avoid using any psychic force. Once I was working in Shantung. A professor there said to his colleague "that these preachers work with emotions." It so happened that when I preached to the believers that afternoon I told them how undependable and useless was emotion. The colleague professor who was told by the first professor that preachers use emotion was also present at the meeting. After he heard my word he said it was a pity that the professor who spoke to him was absent.
Let us remember that all works done through emotion are questionable and transient. In the work done through the power of the Holy Spirit man does not need to exert his own strength nor do anything by himself. If a work is done by soul strength one has to exert lots of energy and employ numerous methods such as weeping, shouting, jumping, incessant singing of choruses, or the telling of a number of moving stories (I do not say that hymns and stories should not be used, only everything must be done within appropriate bounds). For the employment of these methods serves no other purpose than that of trying to stir up the audience.
We all know that some individuals have a magnetic attraction about them. Though they may not be fairer or more eloquent than others, they nonetheless can draw people to themselves. Often have people told me, "You have great influence over So-and-so, why do you not pull him over?" To which I answer, "That is useless." For this will merely be natural; it is not spiritual at all. Many mistake Christianity to be a kind of psychic phenomenon as though it belongs to the domain of psychology. We really cannot blame them, because we believers make the mistake first. Unless the power of God draws your parents or your children, your natural attraction-however great it may be-is of no avail. Even if you could draw them with your dynamic force, what, if anything, is really gained?
(Watchman Nee from The Latent Power of the Soul, Chapter 2)
When Speech Goes Wrong
21 hours ago
11 comments:
Mushroom,
This is an intriguing post. I didn’t know entirely what to make of it when I first read it last night -- well before bed. However, it’s now 3am and one of those rare wide-awake but completely clear head states and one of the first things that comes back to me in this condition is this post.
I never heard of this person. I expected a post written by you as most (all?) of them here are. But it didn’t really sound like you…and then shortly after the writer sounded almost “Native-American” which is probably impossible to describe how you can tell, but you can tell. I scrolled to the end and see it is an excerpt and the man’s unusual name still sounds Native-American and Asian at the same time. I go to wiki at 3am and wow – what a his-story. I’m wrong about the first part of course but not really – that “way of speaking” is clearly there.
But while I’m still in bed wide-awake I see I’m still trying to get the guy’s point :-) And I remember Bob’s symbols of the down and up arrows and wonder if this is what he is talking about. Interesting too that on wiki he sounds like Bob or Sri Aurobindo. But his point in your excerpt is more than about placing a name/symbols for distinguishing one from the other but more to what they mean to each other; their roles -- maybe. And of course the warning.
To this day when I think of the serious depression that nearly did me in, now over 15 years ago, while I was “in it” it felt like something had been taken out of me. Like a very large thing, like my motor, something was very wrong and very missing. It was like my soul had left – but that couldn’t be right because I thought my soul was “me” and if it left to be happier someplace else (I wouldn’t blame it at the time), then “I” would be there, wherever “there” was, and I would be happy :-) Either way, I think I know how Lazarus felt.
I’m still not entirely convinced of how I look at this "thing that was not there" now, which is very different that I how I looked at it then, but about 2 years ago it occurred to me that it may not have been a “single” thing that left me for awhile, but a “half”…but that one half was not the same as the other half. As in, the spirit went away for awhile, but my soul stayed behind. Why did it leave? If the Watchman fellow is speaking to me, it could be by my innocent or ignorant mistake; my connection, really, between the two halves was false or misplaced. Well, when the “half” went away so did the connection. And at the bottom of the deep, dark well I found the proper one. It was proved down there.
So what do you make of what Watchman says? I’m interested to see where your idea came from – place it next to what I say and see what the third thing looks like.
(Sorry for the long comment)
Nee apparently encountered a lot of negative things in Christianity. He seems to have been sensitized to this soul-spirit conflict both by his culture and his experience.
There are plenty of secular thinkers and scientists who will classify all psychic phenomenon as natural and/or fake. Well, it is natural in that it comes out of man, that is, the self and the fallen soul.
Nee believes that Adam, before his fall, was a kind of superman, or he would look that way to us. He says that this tremendous power still resides in us in a vastly diminished and bound form. If it is nurtured and cultivated, it can be used for what seems to be incredible feats of power. But is a dangerous thing to do.
Psychic power, in Nee's view, stands in opposition to spiritual power. Though to the undiscerning, the effects of these may be very similar. You can have psychic healings, prophecies, signs, and wonders.
Is Nee correct in his view? At root, I think I agree with him, though perhaps not in specifics. He's probably a little less skeptical of fakes than I am.
If I had to boil it down, what I'd say is that you see lots of stuff that appears to be good and positive, even uplifting and "spiritual", but at it's heart it is still a manifestation of the human soul rather than the Spirit of God. Think Deepak Chopra, Anthony Robbins, and Oprah's various gurus and goofs.
In my opinion, not only is there demonic power but a dark psychic power as well.
My encounter with depression gave me very much the impression that "something had a hold on me".
Ah.. I don’t think I was far off then.
I hadn’t finished the wiki page on Watchman when I wrote my comment. Only afterwards did I learn why he changed his name...I love that…and then for him, in a sense, to visit me at 3am :-) He’s still on the job.
Would you recommend that book you excerpt? I wonder if Bob knows of him..he must. His opinion of Christianity (proper – and based on the wiki page only) sound very Raccoonish.
I would recommend reading just about any of Watchman Nee's books. Some you can find here at the Christian Corps Catalog site, down toward the bottom. I have hard copies of both The Spiritual Man and The Normal Christian Life, the latter being probably the widely read and accessible of Nee's writings. The Latent Power of the Soul is one I pulled off that site and I haven't finished it yet. I was skimming through and that section caught my eye. It pinged something I'd been looking for and seemed like it might be useful to others.
I'm guessing Nee would be under Bob's radar. Some of his writings are referenced in the mainstream of evangelical Christianity. Other of his works are shunned and attacked by evangelicals as being too mystical and even gnostic. So, yes, he could have been one of us.
Thanks, Mushroom. I think I saw on the wiki page a link to an eBook. I really like my eBook reader. If the book looks good I still get the paper copy though. Something about the paper..
Ha ha! Okay, why did this elicit humor on my part? Well that, my friends is somewhat of a mythtery.
I mewan, I gotta laugh at the idiotic choices I used to make.
First of all, let me say I like the cut of yer jibs, and I like the cut of Nee's jib! At least what I have read thus far...and that has inspired a future post I shall write on a different subject.
One that has always been ambiguous to me, at least in a Catholic/Protestant sense.
Intriguing is right, Rick!
I have been blessed, I reckon, in that I have embraced Protestant and Catholic, in my short life, and wholeheartedly at that, at different times.
Mushroom brings up some swordcuttin' points: psychic vs Holy Spirit, and how to discern what is motivating and inspiring our selves.
I'm sure glad I read this post!
And I'm glad I read the comments.
This delves deep into how to discern truth, beauty and goodness, because it asks "where does it come from?"
Everyone, including atheists and pagans, want to belong. No man is an island...without becoming insane, and even then, he still "belongs" in some sense, although not necessarily in a good sense...or spirit.
As Rick mentions, this is about meaning, and warnings.
Can psychic power be used in service of the Holy Spirit?
I believe it can, but it must be wholeheartedly in service of the Holy Spirit, else it becomes a stumbling block and a source of pride (rebellion).
Be that as it may, we gno the Holy Spirit is trustworthy, which is why we seek His guidance first and foremost.
Because psychic powers or gifts given by God can be very influentual and addicticting without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and they can cause even the most spiritually mature to stumble and fall.
I gno this through my own experiences, and, I'm sorry to say, this almost destroyed my own spirit, so WE MUST, ALWAYS, BE VIGILANT!
Pinging, if you will, everything we see, hear, read, touch, feel, off of the Holy Spirit which dwells within us, and God's Word, through prayer, meditation and coontemplation.
As Mushroom's title says, Power for Service, and ONLY for service.
And erring on the side of humble, if it's possible to err in that manner, is the Way to go.
Emotions don't mean diddly without the proper guidance. I wouldn't say emotions are useless, but they certainly are secondary to truth which ought to be first and foremost.
Outstanding post, Mushroom!
You bring up some excellent points, Ben. God gives us all our gifts -- I guess that's why they 'em gifts -- and yet we have to give them up to Him if we want them to have any Real meaning.
Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the One seated on the throne, the One who lives forever and ever, the 24 elders fall down before the One seated on the throne, worship the One who lives forever and ever, cast their crowns before the throne:
Our Lord and God, You are worthy to receive glory and honor and power, because You have created all things, and because of Your will they exist and were created. (Revelation 4:9-11)
if you want all Nee's publication, here is the link:
http://www.ministrybooks.org/collected-works.cfm
I recommend "The Glorious Church" in set.2.
if you want all Nee's publication, here is the link:
http://www.ministrybooks.org/collected-works.cfm
I recommend "The Glorious Church" in set.2.
Thank you for the link, Jim, and thanks for dropping by.
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